xVrieslandsia September Song
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xVrieslandsia September Song
Bigeneric cv. of Vriesea Van Ackeri X Tillandsia deppeana ?, Pinegrove Nursery.
Not yet registered(2011), see on-going discussions below.
2017 - now registered as a Vriesea -
From BCR ... "Although said to be a bigeneric, the progeny shows typical Vriesea inflorescence, so in this case it is either selfing or foreign pollen. Mature rosette to 50 cms. diameter x 57 cms high including spike. Reg. Doc. 10/2011 by Ross Little."
This plant is still under discussion.
|Photo Ross Little, Pinegrove, 09/11.
Who names it, what is an appropriate name, is it Vriesea or intergeneric ?
A small part of the correspondence is shown here.
07/09/11 8pm Ross Little
Attached photo's of a Vrieslandsia made here at Pinegrove (John Buchanan) and named by Pinegrove, it was an existing name when Helen and I took over, this plant does not appear to be registered, forwarding for your thoughts mainly as to its name. Should we retain this name or change it? I don't have a problem with the name myself. I have only ever released a couple with this name on them, I'm sure one went to Nanna so check to see if it is coming into spike Derek.
We would appreciate thoughts as we are looking at releasing a few shortly and it needs to be registered.
Vriesea Van Ackeri x Tillandsia deppeana = xVrieslandsia 'September 11'
Hybridizer Pinegrove named by Pinegrove would probably be sufficient details for register.
Plant 500 mm across, spike 570 mm tall over all.
The question is, do you feel it has the deppeana in it or is it just a selfing of Van Ackeri, should this plant be considered a Vrieslandsia or not ??
08/09/11 Derek Butcher
Yes, we do have a Vriesea Sept 11 from you and we wait for flowering in a couple of years. ..... name is a bit off putting......'Red September' or 'September Song'? I know there is already a Neoregelia 'September Eleven'.........
My other problem is that the flower suggests Vriesea with no hint of T. deppeana in it. That is if we accept what John Arden has done. Check BCR where the same parentage is quoted! (Nedra) Could it be foreign pollen or even a selfing?
08/09/11 Ross Little
In a way I don't have total naming rights as we bought the collection/property we are not the breeder, however as the plant was produced at Pinegrove and we now own Pinegrove I guess we do have the rights as much as anybody else I suppose.
....... Helen has voted for 'September Song', I'm happy with that, haven't heard from Geoff yet so we wait and see.
As far as being a Vriesea or Vrieslandsia how does one tell? The plant is different to one parent being Van Ackeri but similarish to the other being deppeana with it's multi paddles. I do have another plant tagged as having the same parentage that has not flowered yet, it is about 900 - 1000 mm across which is slightly bigger than our Vrieslandsia Inca Chiefs. Maybe they did the cross twice for two different results or one cross with varying results, what did John Arden cull from his crosses ??? maybe similar to our result. I know it is not a tag mix up by us as we have original photo's by Buchanan's with their code and parentage written on the back of the photo which matches the plant in question. I think Derek and I decided before that we would go with Vriesea with a notation* to Vrieslandsia which is why Nanna's plant has Vriesea September 11 on it's tag.
09/09/11 Len Colgan
Hi again Ross. I think the Buchanans obtained some of John Arden's hybrids. Are you sure your plant is a Buchanan attempt?
09/09/11 Geoffrey Lawn
A few comments:
1. 'September Song' is a more appropriate choice befitting a beautiful hybrid one would want to keep remembering.
2. X Vrieslandsia or straight Vriesea hybrid I.D. I have trouble seeing real differences as to whether bigeneric or not, where both parents are similar in foliage and inflorescences. Perhaps Derek can explain why he thinks it's not bigeneric ? His comment about John Arden's hybrid in the BCR I assume refers to x Vrieslandsia 'Negra' (= Vriesea Van Ackeri x Tillandsia deppeana). However, one would expect the same cross to produce variable progeny with a hybrid x species combination, assuming the parents quoted are correct.
09/09/11 Kerry Tate
Len, but I'm still not seeing Ross's plant as the same as John Arden's xVrieslandsia 'Nedra' - albeit similarly coloured. Excuse the layman terminology, but the green inner leaves risen and interspersed part-way up the inflo, from where the lower floral branches emerge, and as seen in 'Nedra' and deppeana, are not present in Ross's plant. In Ross's plant, the inflo spike looks to come from the centre, and then branched only from it - no risen inner leaves.
Also, the floral bracts on 'Nedra' are slightly separated, versus Ross's plant which (at stage of photos) has dense, closely-set primary bracts - more in keeping with its Vriesea parent.
09/09/11 Derek Butcher
I am waiting for Ross to send a photo of the petals which should be a yuk colour.
Thank Nanna for the name 'September Song'
9/09/11 Len Colgan
I am confident it is a vriesea, just like you say.
Incidentally, does anyone else have X Vrieslandsia 'Nedra'? John had a number of them, and so I would suggest other Australians obtained one.
My plant suffered terribly in quarantine, but has thrown two offsets out of the middle of the plant. They are both now growing strongly, and I have removed all remnants of the imported plant.
09/09/11 Derek Butcher
Len, I eagerly await your flowering this bigeneric. Does it flower and what is the result of hybridising a blue petal with a yellow petal? John Arden has not divulging this information.
9/09/11 Kerry Tate
Derek - I have seen a photo of xVrieslandsia 'Nedra' in flower. It has small, pale, dirty-coloured petals - similar to many other bigenerics and same-genus hybrids with yellow and blue-petaled parents (but not all). Some "interpetaled" hybrids have pale grey, almost white flowers. Although some may lean toward one parent's petal colour, rarely do they have strong clear colour after just one parent. They seem to get more of a tertiary-coloured combination. Well, that's from my observations anyway. A couple of good examples are Ae. 'Belizia' and Ae. 'Kimberley'. My lovely xVL 'Marichelle' has dirty-lemon to greyish-tipped petals, but I have seen photos of some 'Marichelle' with quite bright blue(purple)-tipped petals...what's with that?
Len - Yes, I bought two xVL 'Nedra' from John. Alas, neither survived. I'm glad yours did - well, its pups! In fact, I bought 9 different xVrieslandsias from John, and only 3 varieties survived. Very sad about that, but at least I have 3 different nice ones, being xVL 'Mayan Chief', xVL 'Twin Brother' and xVL 'Ballerina' - (V. 'Charles' x V. bleheri) x T. insignis (is T. insignis a valid name??). Oh - and one of my xVL 'Arden's Fireworks' is just hanging in there, but will probably cark it.
Ross - what think you about your Buchanan hybrid?
09/09/11 Ross Little
No need to wait Derek, I don't feel petal colour is always muddied by crossing blue with yellow as often previously thought, I have four Vrieslandsia Inca Chief in spike at the moment, I have checked one with emerging petals and they appear yellow, I shall photo and post when fully out to confirm.
As for what I think, I guess I wouldn't be asking others if I thought the answer was clear cut, considering if Van Ackeri is one of the parents, it in itself is a complex hybrid so varied results may be expected. It is not in the import records nor is it recorded in the Buchanan hybrid book, as far as Buchanan's importing Arden hybrids none are recorded as being imported so I considered what are here are remakes ?? or came in as seed and grown on ?? this plant we are looking at may be one of the results ?? what did Arden cull out of his results of this cross, we only see one result, Nedra.
I've looked at all the parentage and now I've thrown it over to you guys for thoughts, I've asked Derek to look at the photo's of Vriesea Flammea as we know a lot of plants here came from Selby as did the photo of Flammea. I'm really not sure on this one, I'm tending to leave the technical decision up to Geoff when he does the rego. The plant at the moment has the name September 11 on it. As it is coming to that date we thought we should get it registered but as what, it is felt this name should be changed to September Song and as most are leaning toward Vriesea it may go that way, I'll leave that to Geoff.
It doesn't look like the Van Ackeri parent nor deppeana but some where in between, so maybe it IS a VrL ??
09/09/11 Chris Larson
Hi Kerry. V'landia Marichelle has a few clones in amongst them. Not down to one clone. Some blue, some bi-colour, some dirty intermediate. Some open well some are nearly closed. Parents not T.imperialis X Favorite as mentioned but a variation on V.xpoelmannii that floated around Victoria - and some other states - as V.Favorite.
Also not sure which was mother or father as the tags were lost in the throws of commercial growing.
Ross: You will note that if a hybrid has not been named by another, the BCR allows you to credit the hybridizer, and name it yourself. Check the V'landia Marichelle - where Kevin did the cross & grew the seedlings to a certain stage - then I named it/them.
10/09/11 Kerry Tate
Thanks Chris. More than one clone of xVrieslandsia 'Marichelle' explains the variations in petal colour and behaviour.
10/09/11 Derek Butcher
To explain to the others, I believe that petal colour is genetic and is complicated by genes being either dominant or recessive. In the sex related 'dance of the chromosomes' anything can happen. In the fusion of the sperm and the ovule if two dominants clash then you get odd looking colours. So I prepare myself to look for odd colours if the parents have different coloured petals.
10/09/11 Derek Butcher
Kerry: The suspense is killing me! Is there a chance we could get hold of this photo of 'Nedra' for the BCR ?
A similar situation with 'Ballerina' which could well be registered on John Arden's behalf. As for T. insignis I would not worry too much. If that was the name on the label when the hybrid was done then we leave it at that. Should I say, I recommend this action for the simple reason that was the name on the plant that was used and we have no proof how it was identified or by whom, or if it is now a synonym >:-}
10/09/11 Kerry Tate
Derek - The photo to which I referred was taken by John himself (I assume), and included in a disc he kindly posted to me of many of his hybrids - prior to my visit last year. It is very similar to the photo of 'Nedra' already on the BCR, but if you look closely, you will see the photo has been taken while in flower. It looks like the same specimen, but obviously the photo on the disc was taken at a later date than the BCR image.
Because the photo was large and of reasonably high resolution, I have taken the liberty to crop it - in order to view the flowers better. For email purposes, I have made a smaller copy of John's original photo, and included the cropped images for interested persons' curiosity - and possible addition to the BCR. (Ed. see 'Nedra' this website)
I see small, dirty-coloured petals, possibly even bi-coloured. Do others agree? I imagine those sexy chromosomes have been dancing a fine jig.
Re 'Ballerina': I'm happy to keep the parentage as written on tag. Goodo. However, although I have three plants, I suspect it will be several moons before I see an inflorescence. Stay tuned, but don't hold your breath!
11/09/11 George Stamis
John Arden has done 2 VL hybrids using T.insignis that I know of. Ballerina and Magic Wings (Heavenly Wings?) is the other. Both are lovely but very slow growers compared to the other intergenerics. Good drainage (very open mix), air movement and feeding. Prolonged cold brings them into bloom early. Magic Wings can rot off at the base quite easily if drainage is poor. Ballerina isn't so fussy.
On flowers of VL's and VC's, most are not properly formed, especially the anthers. Some intergeneric flowers don't open properly either. The flowers on VC's have large petals and are occasionally fragrant (if Alc regina or glazioiana are the parents). You can usually pick intergeneric Tillandsiodeae very easily from the flowers, even if the other characteristics aren't obvious.